I wasn’t going to show my face because I’m sick, but now you’ve seen it. It’s all good…

How are you?

I’m sorry I interrupted you, Rob.

I have a major caffeine problem as well. What time is it for you?

Oh my god.

Thank you for making the time. So kind of you. I’m in San Francisco, so four o’clock. It’s the best time for me, so thank you to both of you for that. [laughs]

Then we’ll just get going. The structure will be very loose. We get to do these interesting conversations around tough questions that are very…not obvious to answer.

The issue we’re thinking about now is around democracy and governance and what makes for a system that is resilient and inclusive.

That’s great. I would love for you to talk a little bit more about those components. Even in the bedrock, as you described it of infrastructure. If you don’t mind, I’m going to take you back to those points and ask you to add a bit more.

Certainly, universal broadband, that makes sense. I would love to hear what you mean when you say universal competency?

That’s helpful. That’s a really important shift, accepting that people will consume and create stories that they share out, and they get involved by listening and producing.

What are then the skill sets that need to come with that so that they can do that in…? What do you think the goal is? What’s the aspiration?

This is a very important point. Thank you for explaining that. A lot of the challenges that we are still dealing with is this strong desire to concentrate power in the intermediaries, or in the people who share. Even in not doing that, we mess with the system when people do share and interact. This point is really great.

When you say that AI’s closest to where suffering is, can you describe a little more about what that looks like in an ideal sense?

Wow. That’s very cool. I think you’ve said it all. You’re demonstrating a change in the role of government in that example, and maybe I’m asking, are you demonstrating a change in the role of government now? What is that change? What is the role of government in a system like that?

I have so many questions, but first, how do you define public sector?

OK, great. Then I’m just curious if your public sector, is it primarily still associated with government? Public sector could mean for us even like nonprofits, or it could mean local government, for example, services. I’m just curious if your…

That’s helpful. Of course, the natural question is [laughs] who maintains the pro-social structure, and where did this come from?

Governments do not often play a role like that. It’s very easy for the government to be more of a power hoarder in some ways, depending on the…

That’s very helpful. In the event of more organized interference, state-based or otherwise…

Individuals, or if there is more of a concentrated effort to do so, how do you manage?

Did you find that similar to the system that was created because the system has created those entities or partners emerge naturally through it, or was there also a concentrated effort to build those antibodies?

Yeah, and we’ve created a very capitalist-oriented system and we have seen the norms proliferate around that.

Was the intention there from the beginning? One of the things that we run into is essentially how do you get to the aspiration? What actually led that desire for pro-social infrastructure to be developed?

That’s a very cool analogy. How…

That’s pretty important. One of the things that also strikes me is I’m just amazed that…you have a party system. You have parties, right?

I’m just struck by the fact that people don’t use this system to accumulate favor first in party. I’m amazed by that.

You said seven are independent? I don’t know if you’d used independent, non-partisan?

Non-partisan. That’s so interesting. Honestly, normally I would think this is the hardest job in the world to work [laughs] across different ministries and somehow find consensus. Or not even consensus, even just agreement with issues.

Can you describe a little more about how that works? You’ve got open government, social innovation, engagement. How do you champion that across the…?

I’m just struck by how…It’s a really different role to think of yourself as this person in a government versus the authority figure making decisions on behalf of people. It’s a really different role. I just want to call that out. It’s believing that you’re…

Thank you for that. It was a helpful illustration. As you think about technology…what’s kind of a challenge with technology, and maybe also an opportunity, is that it is very dynamic in and of itself. It’s itself constantly evolving.

I’m struck by two things. One, the fact that your government is [laughs] technology able enough to incorporate in this way is pretty significant.

I’m curious how that is. If you do have a generational split in their ability to envision this and what you do in that? Second, around how do you remain adaptive as technology changes? Do you have to, or is it not necessary?

Yes, that’s amazing.

You didn’t respond directly to what the request was, which is good. You actually said, “OK, I hear your request, but I actually wanted to redefine what pink and blue means so that they are not gender associated.”

That took a different…I guess what I’m saying is there’s a judgement call that’s made there that centered around that…

It’s also what you mean by fun, which I really appreciate. It doesn’t have to be just a punitive system that government enforces.

Thank you.

This has been so helpful. We’re out of time. Everything you told us is so rich. We should wrap up, Rob. Any final comments from you, Audrey?

It’s fine. Is this how I look when I’m sitting?

Yes, it’s fascinating. I think we’ll try to move to Taiwan soon.

I’m going to. Are you kidding?

And I’m vaccinated, so don’t worry.

Audrey, bye.