In the U.S., what you have is this phenomenon of people saying the mainstream media is associated with one party, so we’re going to create a separate media. The separate media then becomes an area for disinformation, rumors, and so on.

Public TV.

Public TV can also be captured.

How do you deal with the influence of Facebook and other outside social media? They don’t have these same kinds of …

… and these same kinds of rules. You can’t regulate them.

Yes.

Was your social sector pushing on Facebook to make a change?

For example, the Uzbek social sector also objects to the way Facebook works sometimes, but apparently they don’t seem to have the same purchase, or the …

This was into 2014?

This is a parade or something?

Taiwan is really only safe as a democracy if other democracies support it.

A lot of other democracies are in trouble. American democracy’s in trouble. Some European democracies are in trouble. More generally, the pressure on democracies around the world is quite strong. Do you think at all about that, about how to share your methods with others? Do you have conversations about these issues across borders? You mentioned Ukraine.

You find people are taking it up?

As I said, in the U.S., at least on the surface, I don’t see any of these things happening. I see, in fact, the polarization growing rather worse.

You think people in America are working on the root causes, other than the three academics at University of Texas, and University of Massachusetts?

Are you aware of more?

You’re the first person I’ve heard say that. I hear, “My impressions of Silicon Valley is getting worse, [laughs] not better, on these issues.” You’re in touch with people there on …?

Do you think at all, not just about defending democracy and democratic resilience and so on, do you think at all about pushing the idea of democracy in the autocratic world, so in China or in Russia?

What do you do that you think is successful?

I’m aware of some projects, mostly not publicized.

I know you are.

That reaches the people who are …

… already activists …

… who are digital. Do you think at all about the broader public in China? In China and in Russia, but it’s the same …

The Great Firewall has not banned access to GitHub?

Do you have any sense of any kind of take-up among the general public? Is that something you can measure or not? Are you able to measure counter-messaging in Chinese media or Chinese Internet?

Overseas Chinese communities?

Do you think at all about narratives that work or ways to contact people in China? Or is that you leave to the Hong Kong journalists?

I was asking something a little bit different, namely do you think about what narratives would be effective in China? Are there ways to reach … There are different kinds of audiences in China. Obviously, there are different audiences everywhere. There’s an audience that would be receptive to hearing about democracy, and that’s probably very small.

Then there’s an audience who would be interested in hearing about peace in the world, and that might be a little bit bigger.

There’s an audience that would be receptive to hearing about the environment, and that’s a different audience.

Do you think about those audiences and how to reach them, or is that not your job?

Is there anyone in Taiwan who thinks along that way, or not?

Your interest is creating the digital infrastructure that makes it possible.

Any future’s fine with you?

Can I ask you, just out of curiosity, what you make of the events in China over the last few days and how that …

The Congress and the completion of the transformation of China into not just a one-party state but a one-man dictatorship.

Which it didn’t used to be. Do you have a sense of why that’s happening? How’s that going to affect Taiwan? How does it affect the work that you do?

You mean cyber disinformation, military pressure …?

Do you have a sense of what’s happened in China that makes that possible, or what’s changed? Do you have a guess at it?

Why is that producing this new level of aggression against Taiwan?

I remember people saying that about Hong Kong.

The Hong Kong dissidents here, how did they fit into your argument or your plan? Do you have regular dialogue with them?

I might even be going there. I know I’m meeting several Hong Kong people while I’m here.

Good. I’m reluctant to take up your entire day. [laughs] I wanted to thank you for your time …

…and wish you luck. As I said, we’re coming into a very rough period in world history.

Yes, thank you.

We wanted to begin with your philosophy, the philosophy behind some of the things that you’re doing. You have described yourself as a “conservative anarchist.” What does that mean?

What do you mean by “with” the government?

Also, by setting up these projects, by setting up Polis or vTaiwan, isn’t that an intervention of the state, or how do you describe what you’re doing there? Is that, you’re creating a framework…